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This question on main was recently opened & closed.
Is it reasonable to expect all the items on the "Programmers Bill of Rights"?

This meta question is to allow a discussion on whether the question is

  • on-topic
  • off-topic
  • if off-topic, any hope of salvaging it?

To be a little more clear, my intent was for the meta discussion to evolve around the latest version of the question, whatever that may end up morphing into.

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@Yannis - Thanks for the additional tags. – GlenH7 Feb 4 at 17:54
It should be noted that the original question was cross-posted on the Workplace. They've edited their version to fit their site scope, and I edited the one here to try and fit Programmer's scope. The end result is two very different but related questions. Personally I think the Programmers version is OK now, and have voted to reopen it. – Rachel Feb 4 at 19:22
@Rachel - would you like to move that comment to an answer? I opened up this meta Q so we "the community" could work out what the right approach is for that question. I was hoping you would provide the on-topic / affirmative answer. – GlenH7 Feb 4 at 19:23
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Sure, I expanded into a full answer explaining why I think it's OK, and posted it below – Rachel Feb 4 at 19:34
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I am curious to know what was intended by the -1 for the question itself. Is that a vote for "no, a discussion isn't needed"? – GlenH7 Feb 4 at 19:46

3 Answers

up vote 5 down vote accepted

The current revision of the question is definitely a lot better than the original one, but I'm afraid the question is still not one that can be answered factually. The core question is:

I'm sure not all workplaces do (mine doesn't), but I would like to know if each of these items can reasonably be expected for most programming jobs.

The assumption that there's any kind of uniformity in programming jobs is horribly flawed, answers will differ wildly per industry and per country, and even per team. It's an interesting question, but as currently phrased, it's one that can only be discussed and not answered.

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That is the statement explaining the reason for posting the question. The actual core question is the question posted in the title and on the question itself: "Is it reasonable to expect all the items on the "Programmers Bill of Rights"?" and "Is it reasonable to expect a workplace to provide their programmers with all these items?". This is not a request for a list of how your workplace does things (the way the original question was), and I think it is one that can be reasonably answered by the Programmers community. – Rachel Feb 4 at 20:05
@Rachel What is the difference between "Is it reasonable to expect" and "if each of these items can reasonably be expected"? – Yannis Rizos♦ Feb 4 at 20:10
Your answer isn't focused on that though. Its focused on "The assumption that there's any kind of uniformity in programming jobs is horribly flawed, answers will differ wildly per industry and per country, and even per team", which sounds like you're speaking about the original version. The OP isn't asking for a uniform answer that fits all cases. He only wants to know if it would be reasonable to expect these items from a programming job, or if they only come with top-level jobs. I don't think that is a "not-constructive" question – Rachel Feb 4 at 20:24
@Rachel Ah, now we're splitting hairs at a subatomic level. – Yannis Rizos♦ Feb 4 at 20:28
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The question as written lacks a problem (which would help generate an answer). – Aaron Kurtzhals Feb 4 at 20:33
up vote 1 down vote

The question is not constructive to begin with, as there is no real answer other than everyone listing their own experience with X company which makes a long list of not very useful answers.

At best I would label this question borderline on topic, because if you really stretch business concerns it fits, but there is nothing there about software development in the question at all.

I think the best way to keep the question alive would be to get it in a shape acceptable for the workplace and migrate it there.

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I think the question is about the current revision being on or off topic or not, and not about the original version's constructiveness. Also, there's a duplicate cross-posted on the workplace already that has been modified to suit their scope. – Rachel Feb 4 at 19:24
@rachel my answer was in reference to that latest version (4) of the item. – Ryathal Feb 4 at 19:28
up vote -2 down vote

Per the meta-faq post about career-questions:

Can I ask career advice questions?

No, unless your question is specifically about software development and requires the unique insights of a programmer. Most career advice questions run the risk of being closed: try to make yours a good subjective question.

Since the question is about a programmer-specific work environment, providing items from a Programmer-specific "Bill of Rights", I think that it is on-topic for the site.

As a side note, I know another answer suggested that the question get cleaned up and migrated to the Workplace, however the original question was cross-posted on the Workplace.

They've edited their version to fit their site scope, and I edited the one here to try and fit Programmer's scope. The end result is two very different but related questions.

Programmers.SE: Is it reasonable to expect all the items on the "Programmers Bill of Rights"?

Workplace.SE: How to encourage an employer to adopt the "Programmer's Bill of Rights"?

Personally I think the Programmers version is OK now, and have voted to reopen it.

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On topic, certainly. Constructive? Not so much. – Yannis Rizos♦ Feb 4 at 19:37
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@YannisRizos Well the question was specifically about if the question was on or off topic or not, so that is what I addressed in my answer. Constructive or not is another story. Perhaps you could post your own answer about if it's on or off-topic, and include why you think it isn't constructive? – Rachel Feb 4 at 19:44

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